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An expert in fields ranging from entrepreneurship, intellectual property, and the use of open source software (OSS) in the legal industry, Charles “Charlie” von Simson is an advisor to founders and early-stage companies as Of Counsel at Barclay Damon LLP and a Clinical Associate Professor for University of Wisconsin Law School’s Law & Entrepreneurship Clinic. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
With his broad array of experience in the legal field, including clerking for a United States District Court Judge, working as a Big Law associate for internationally recognized AmLaw firms, and, most recently, training and testing algorithms for an AI-driven legal tech platform, Charlie offers a unique perspective on how the practice of law is evolving and growing beyond traditional boundaries. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
We were thrilled to sit down with Charlie to learn more about his role at the University of Wisconsin Law School and in the legal tech industry at large.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Charlie von Simson: I spent the first 20 years of my career as an intellectual property lawyer in New York, with an emphasis on technology transactions and litigation. A few years ago, I decided I wanted to teach, so I pursued a professional LLM in law and technology at the University of Toronto and ended up working as an adjunct professor in that program. Along the way, I had the opportunity to work at a legal tech startup in Toronto. From there, I got back on the teaching track and accepted a position in the Law & Entrepreneurship Clinic at the University of Wisconsin Law School. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
CVS: The mission of the Clinic is to train law students to provide professional legal advice to founders and startups. We work to give students a strong background in business law and help them advise clients who are forming new businesses. We\u2019re also focused on helping grow the Wisconsin economy. Being of practical service to the citizens of Wisconsin is at the heart of the Wisconsin Idea, which is an important founding principal of UW. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
CVS: OSS development is fundamentally about collaboration and drawing on talent and experience from inside and outside an individual organization and among different professional disciplines. Lawyers tend to be proprietary thinkers because their job is to single-mindedly protect their clients\u2019 interests. But the proprietary mindset is changing as lawyers see the value in working in multi-disciplinary teams to develop litigation metrics, new billing models, legal research algorithms, automated document analysis, and an almost limitless range of other tools. The OSS mindset will migrate to the way lawyers work with clients. I think the spirit of collaboration fostered by OSS platforms will continue to change the legal profession for the better. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
CVS: OSS platforms are a bridge between software developers and lawyers. A quick scan of GitHub reveals a lot of OSS projects in the legal tech space. Lawyers are working on open source license projects<\/a>, building legal decision data sets, and developing statistical models of court performance. Most of the projects are relatively new. Lawyers now have a chance to apply their legal knowledge to open source projects and learn a lot about technology in the process. They can deepen their understanding of their clients\u2019 products and seed their own firms with ideas about using technology to support their practices. <\/p>\n\n\n\n CVS: Despite the hype, I think AI development in legal technology has been slower than anticipated. The main reason in my view is that there aren\u2019t enough experienced lawyers involved in training and testing algorithms. It would really help if lawyers could get CLE credit for working on open source algorithms. That would speed progress in development of real AI legal tech applications. <\/p>\n\n\n\n CVS: MIT Technology Review<\/a> is the single best source of information on AI development. There are also a few good TED Talks, particularly by Clay Shirky. He has spent a lot of time thinking about opening the legislative process to citizens through open source platforms. I don\u2019t read too much about AI in legal tech specifically. Too many of the articles are written by people who are trying to sell you something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n CVS: \u201cI\u2019m Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.\u201d Do Cocoa Puffs still exist?<\/p>\n\n\n\n CVS: I\u2019m working with UW law students on two legal tech projects that have been accepted for development by a venture studio. I\u2019m really looking forward to seeing how those projects evolve in 2021. I\u2019m also new to teaching and I have a lot to learn about being a teacher. I want to improve there as well. <\/p>\n\n\n\nUC: What is needed for the advancement of AI in legal technology? Are there any particular barriers impeding the expansion of legal AI?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
CVS: What are some of your favorite resources for learning about AI and its intersection with the law?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
UC: What are some of your favorite sayings?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
UC: What are your goals for 2021? What projects are you working on? Are there any upcoming events in the legal tech space of which we should be aware?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n
UC: Where can we learn more about you and your work?<\/h2>\n\n\n\n